Which 1st?: FLOSS End-User-Apps or "LAMPS" Promotion (00) - was Re Open Office...

Stefan,

I'm trying to get second opinions on the state of Viet-localization
of the end-user applications you mentioned.

Otherwise, you sort of chopped and mixed my previous mail so much i
can barely recognize it myself. I found myself writing several
separate replies, but ran out of time.

Here's goes another stream-of-consciousness missive -- the type of
which i am swearing off forever, after this one. ;)

I suppose my main response would be that if all the end-user
applications you listed as "enabling" possibilities for avoiding
potential Intellectual-Property-Rights-violation penalties or aiding
VietNam's socio-economic development are really viable alternatives
here and now, why is it that you, me and almost everyone else on
this mailing list are still using Windows applications?

I'd also remind you of your own words to the PubSoft mailing list:

>From: Stefan Probst <stefan.probst@opticom.v-nam.net>
>Subject: Re: [PubSoft] Are we ready? was: Public SW for Vietnam Presentation
>Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 10:30:23 +0700
>
>I used OpenOffice's 1.0.2 Impress. Unfortunately, the ooi file displays
>rubbish when viewed with OpenOffice 1.0 (not sure about 1.0.1).
>
>Should I tell now users in Vietnam, that each time there is a minor
>upgrade of OpenOffice available, they will have to upgrade, or should I
>tell them just to take the PowerPoint file?
>
>Sorry folks, my next presentation (at least if it has to be viewable also
>on Windows) will be again PowerPoint. Impress is still not there.
<end>

Personally, i've set up RedHat on a 486 at home that serves a Win2K
workstation and a Slackware8.1/Win98 notebook and shares and protects
my Internet link.

It took me several months to get everything on the server working the
way it should and learn enough to get my CompTIA Linux+ certification.
I have over 15 years experience in IT/IS, starting with mainframes and
card readers in Canadada. But, so far, i still cannot work nearly as
quickly with KDE 3.0 on my IBM ThinkPad 586 as i can with Win98 on a
smaller partition on the same box -- even though Win98 crashes at
least twice a day.

And i don't even need a Vietnamese interface or documentation...

On the other hand, i use the server constantly, Secure Shell (ssh) to
command line only, and almost always only using bash, regex and LAMPS
services. (Again LAMPS=Linux-Apache-MySQL/Masquerade-PPP/PHP/Perl/
Python/PostGreSQL-Samba/Squid) No problem, no crashes. Updates are
virtually automatic now. And it *saves me money* -- more efficient
TCP/IP apps with logging you can throw back at any ISP that tries to
overcharge you. And the old 486-333Mhz is no longer garbage.

But i am still *constantly* learning (and forgetting) more, each and
every day. And i still have a very long way to go with MySQL, PHP, Perl
& even Samba, even after what would be about a full-time year of
studying and practicing spread out over three years.

The last year was almost completely devoted to such studies, along with
a vast mirroring-collection of reports, whitepapers and advocacy doc's
from Apr 2002 to now:

[root@vcserver1 public]# du -hc 200?
<...>
241M 2003
562M total
[root@vcserver1 public]# date
Sun Feb 16 02:21:31 GMT+7 2003

The reason i've done this is in reaction to the experience i had with
managing the renovation of the WAN and Internet services for MaxPort-
HanoiGarment40.Com over 2000-2001, http://hanoigarment40.com (or just
search for "technical outerwear manufacturers" on google.com - HG40
is number one, two and some other first-page hits -- a fact i am
indeed proud of, since that's "No. 1" for a HaNoi company, ahead of
all its global competitors, suppliers and customers, for over a
year and a half. Anyway... ;)).

Core to that project was a migration of most of their file, print and
Internet services to Linux, minimizing what would have to run on
Windows, including a $1.8mn Lectra design-marker-patterning-&-cutting
system connected to the Linux services.

The problem that led me to study Linux and its advocacy for the last
year was that i found i previously could not question almost any
opinion i got from the Linux technicians we hired because i just
didn't understand either the underlying infrastructural or the over-
looming subcultural environments they were working with/in.

Now, after putting the thousands of hours into learning, i know i was
deceived repeatedly by those staff -- because they were *justifiably*
trying to avoid any further workload that was piling up because the
person paying the bills was clueless about IT/IS but wanted to manage
everything personally and throw in new project ideas every time he got
involved (if he didn't fall asleep when we tried to explain things to
him). And i couldn't judge what could and could not be feasibly done.

The primary point is this: Linux and most other FLOSS systems are
*not* very similar to the proprietary systems we have become addicted
to (primarily MS-Windows/Office) in anything but to outward appearance
of some of the GUIs, and trying to manage FLOSS systems development
or make policy proposals without understanding at least the basics
of both the systems and the subculture can lead to some big problems.

And the basics start with infrastructure and content-management,
generally still serving [pirated] Windows apps, not end-user FLOSS
apps.

Why? Probably for the same reasons MaxPort-HanoiGarment40 never
switched to Linux workstations, even though their phase-in was planned
and desired for limiting and monitoring what users could do: just to
get the users trained up to near-full MS Office productivity required
in-house course that almost all the users were only able to partially
attend and complete because they were to busy with their non-IT/IS
duties. The boss-man never even finished a quarter of his personal MS
Office 2000 course.

We found *no* FLOSS courses available in VietNam at the time -- though
this has changed, marginally, now.

But, again, the LAMPS services were all heavily used and saved them
significant money even though at lot of IT/IS staff retraining was
required.

LAMPS usage between Net and internal WAN also left MaxPort-
HanoiGarment40.Com *alone*, among all its overseas and local business
communications partners (including some of the biggest names in the
technical outerwear business worldwide), in terms of freedom from
virus and hacking disasters.

And, finally, it's worth noting that a two-month search for *semi*-
qualified Linux IT/IS staff, with us offering exceptionally high
salaries for the HaNoi market, turned up less than 6 candidates in
Q3, 2000 -- which explains why i took on the Linux Counter Country
Maintainer position and joined VietLUG, to get early access the very
*small* circle of pioneers in the LAMPS.VN arena.

All the best,
Andi

At 10:51 2003.02.15, you wrote:
>Andi, all,
>
>At 14:49 14.02.2003 +0000, AD Marshall wrote:
>-------------------------
>>GS Chuong, JC, Stefan, et al,
>>
>>Stefan said:
>>>as far as I can tell, there is agreement, that we should first aim at
>>>Public SW (Free SW and Open Source Software) for the Windows platform,
>>>before
>>>pushing for a Free OS (like Linux).
>>
>>I agree that Freed & Open-source (FOs) end-user applications are needed to
>>introduce FOs systems and propogate FOs and IP awareness further into
>>VietNam's
>>Information Systems (IS) user population, including business managers, esp.
>>IS purchasing decision makers, first on Win32, and localized is better,
>>but...
>
>What distinguishes this list (at least as I see it) from LUG or many other
>lists is, that it is not about Public SW for its own sake, i.e. it is not
>about promoting Public SW, but about using it for two over-all purposes
>("Main Targets"), as I stated in my proposal:
>1) Counter a possible copyright enforcement push with all its many
>negative consequences
>2) Using it for the development of Vietnam
>
>This would conform also with the list members: Policy decision makers,
>development people, and executors.
>
>>FOs end-user apps are still lagging the propriety apps quite a bit
>
>It is getting closer and closer.
>OO Impress lags PowerPoint, but which ordinary end-user needs it?
>OO Draw is said to be very good - and there is no alternative in MS Office
>OO Writer should match Word for ordinary users (?)
>OO Calc is said to lag behind Excel, but should also be enough for
>end-users (?).
>
>>and getting end-users, who just want to get their work done with minimal
>>technical learning, to switch is going to be very difficult and slow,
>
>I doubt that.
>First, don't forget, that there are permanently /new/ users, who don't
>have to switch, if they start e.g. with OO.
>Second, I want to see how "difficult" it is for a user to switch from an
>English program to a Vietnamese one, if the Vietnamese one works very similar.
>Third, of course there needs to be "guiding actions", like coverage in the
>press, maybe a TV course about switching, etc.
>Fourth, don't forget, it is IMHO in the first place not about switching
>users, but about /enabling/ a switch.... See my proposal.
>
>>at least until Vietnam can afford to pay IPR enforcement officers a few
>>times the value of the proprietary systems whose IPRs the enforcers are
>>already legally responsible to defend and prosecute violators.
>
>See above.
>
>>Further, end-users will not do the localization or customization. It will
>>be IS
>>people. And, so far, there are not even enough IS people fluent enough in
>>English,
>>Systems Development & Project Management procedures and FOs systems to
>>support
>>local customization of even the FOs systems already in place in VietNam.
>
>???
>Mandrake is out in Vietnamese, including a Vietnamese Gnome.
>CMC distributes RedHat 7.1 with a Vietnamese KDE.
>CMC did also the Vietnamese translation of OpenOffice 1.0.1 for Linux.
>A Vietnamese translation of Mozilla is said to be out within this year.
>I don't know how much localization will be included in VietKey Linux....
>
>>This is definitely not to say that FOs end-user applications shouldn't be
>>promoted, just that they may not be the best part of FOs to focus budget
>>priorities on.
>
>I don't think, that at this stage there is /much/ money needed.
>Little amounts can do a lot, if needed.
>A translation of OpenOffice is said to be possible within 2 weeks. And if
>it is 2 months. How much money is this in Vietnam? Now, since OO 1.0.1 is
>already translated for Linux, the additional amount (Windows, and latest
>version 1.0.2) should not take that much more time....
>
>Also, some freeware is easy to translate:
>Opera needs a single long text file with the localized strings. Any
>translator with no IT knowledge at all (i.e. no CVS system, no
>compilation, building, etc.) can do that.
>What is needed, is a good IT dictionary with the typical SW terms. Anybody
>knows one?
>
>>Linux is The FOs product which has the 3M-MA, mass market, maturity
>
> ... but only for servers ... maturity for desktop ?
>
> <cut>
>
>>But there are a more practical, technological and economics arguments for
>>giving secondary priority to FOs end-user applications, like Open Office (but
>>also Evolution, GIMP, Konqueror, Mozilla and many others).
>>
>>Even outside VietNam the first and primary applications of FOs systems are
>>infrastructural and this is where FOs systems naturally excel most since FOs
>>systems are built by and for developers first, end-users later.
>
>But those who operate servers etc. know surely already about Public SW,
>and in fact many use them already. I do not see any need to "promote" it
>in this area.
>
>>Just my opinion, but if i had a limited budget
>
>Nobody knows the budget right now, but it could be considerable, if we
>come up with clear projects.
>
>> for FOs systems propogation,
>
>as said, it is IMHO not about propagation, but about tackling issues.
>
>> i'd
>>be following the biggest trend in global FOs systems adaptation, that of
>>LAMPS
>>(Linux-Apache-MySQL/Masquerade-PPP/PHP/Perl/Python/PostGreSQL-Samba/Squid)
>>which
>>basically forms a complete LAN, WAN, Intranet &/or ISP infrastructure,
>>including
>>billing and content management where needed. For security, add gpg, iptables,
>>nmap, snort and tripwire (aside from the logs and last that are built in to
>>Linux by default).
>>
>>But LAMPS is for IS people, not end-users (or policy makers or even most IS-
>>purchase decision makers). Only IS people will learn LAMPS -- and if they
>>don't
>>we're still stuck with FOs end-user apps on a still unaffordable Win32 IS
>>infrastructure.
>
>The real issue here is IMO about the discrepancy between awareness ("we
>should do this, and in fact might even want to do it"), and the abilities
>("we have no knowledge/experience"). Technicians/Engineers in IT companies
>(i.e. those which provide infrastructure solutions) need re-training so
>that they really can deploy LAMPS systems. University training needs to be
>improved to include that.
>
>Universities say, they lack qualified lectors/tutors. I am not aware about
>any activities to re-train the technicians in IT companies.
>
>As you may remember, I was looking to get University contacts in Vietnam,
>and contacts from appropriate groups outside in order to look what can be
>done in this regard.
>
>>And, finally, LAMPS will have to be learned in English, just to keep up with
>>patches, massive documentation changes and the vast majority of the trade
>>press.
>
>Agreed.
>But English language knowledge is not enough. People need the skills &
>mentality to communicate with others around the globe - Vietnamese and
>non-Vietnamese - to get and provide support. My impression is, that this
>needs also special fostering....
>
>Cheers,
>Stefan
>
>
>
>
>--
>URL of List Archives:
>http://www.isoc-vn.org/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi?f=archive&l=oss
>URL to Subscribe to this list:
>http://www.isoc-vn.org/cgi-bin/mojo272/mojo.cgi?f=n&l=oss
>
>To unsubscribe from: OSS, just follow this link:
>http://www.isoc-vn.org/cgi-bin/mojo272/mojo.cgi?f=u&l=oss
>Click the link, or copy and paste the address into your browser,
>or send a mailto:oss-owner@isoc-vn.org to request manual unsubscription
>by the list administrator.
>

To facilitate co-ordination regarding the introduction of OSS SW in Vietnam

Subscribe to OSS:

Subscribe | Unsubscribe