Re: [OSS] Re: Open Source debate (from South Asia)

At 12:07 01.02.2003 +0000, you wrote:
-------------------------
>Hi all, [Stefan: if they are not on OSS already, can you add the above?]

Done.

>Stefan Probst wrote:
>
> > Prof. Ngoc (Thang Long University) says, that Universities lack teachers.
> > How should they get more without outside, e.g. government help?
> > And - reality check in Vietnam: How do you get Universities to change their
> > curricula without government push - or at least some directive?
>
>Undoubtedly your first point is true. Your second is wrong

OK, how do you improve the first point, if the second is wrong? You ring at
their door, and say "Hello, my name is Vern Weitzel, and I think, that you
should get more GNU/Linux experienced teachers, and change the way how you
teach. Good Bye."? Or would it help to have some support (and money) from
some Government office?

> and dangerous in any
>society, including socialist societies in which the Intelligencia are expected
>to be the revolutionary vangaurd.

I am not talking about the relation between Government and Universities in
general, but specifically about the issue at hand.
And you know as well as me, that the Universities here until now failed to
deliver, what is expected from them.

The point here is, that the Government on a high level should (and I think
has already) a vital interest in finding alternatives to the present MS
dependency. That is different from other issues, where the Government has
no direct stakes in. You would find it normal, if an industry would contact
an University to work on some new technology they are interested in. Why
should the Government not work with Universities in issues which are
important for the country as a whole?

>In practice, 'directives' do no good if they
>are not well thought out and if resources for implementation do not follow
>...
>one might ask, whither Unicode as an example. How many Ministries have
>complied
>with that directive?

What is the alternative?
We have also kind of a chicken-and-egg problem.

>I see three separate questions here. The first concerns the capacity of
>Government
>to deal with complex technical issues. Their job should be to make policy
>based on
>the advice of professionals, in this case, business, academics, telecoms
>people.

What about strategists?

>If the latter have low capacity as you suggest, then the former are not
>able to
>develop good policy.

The Government should manage on a macro level. We here on the list are
supposed to give advice and to assist with the implementation. Technical
Universities (and this is what I was talking about) are not expected to
have experience about policy, but about how to implement. They are expected
to contribute to micro management, which is not the Government's business.

>Thus, issue two is the capacity of universities in particular to foster an
>environment of first class learning. We haven't explored that issue yet but I
>think we should. I am hearing about a lack of linkage between universities and
>the jobs students may expect to get after graduation.

The generally poor (in quality and relevance) education is well known since
very long time, yet nothing seems to change. Universities here seem to be
very much like a state-run enterprise, more interested in fulfilling
5-year-plans than adapting to the demand. There is not such a competitive
situation between Universities like in other countries, especially in the US.

> How can this be improved, given
>that the student body in IT studies will be the source of an ongoing open
>source
>development community. Students must become innovative, group-minded, goal
>focused,
>all the things that we hear about the emergence of collaborative learning
>in other
>countries. A change in this arena is critical to open source and the other
>elements
>of the strategy to make IT a leading industry.

Agreed.

>So, issue three, where do you put your emphasis (and your money). I think
>you have
>got to get academia involved first or the whole show will collapse.

We need them, without doubt. This is, why I asked several times to get
contacts to them to join this list (or other channels of communication).
Whether it has to be "first" or not, is questionable, but this is IMHO not
important right now.

>With all deference to my Government colleagues, decrees are toilet paper
>if they cannot be implemented.

Decrees may announce directions and be signals, even if they cannot be
implemented immediately.

>Now, I would very much appreciate it if this discussion included a lot more
>university IT teachers, particularly those expected to handle open source
>teaching
>and workshopping.

Vern, it looks to me, that you follow what I perceive as a big
mis-judgement in Vietnam, i.e. relying mainly on the output of Universities.

There is a large work force out there of experienced technicians and
engineers. To retrain them is at least as important as to prepare the
Universities.

But who should do what will be a matter of future consideration.

I think, we are developing here until now some theoretical/ideological
foundation. Concrete work will start after the holidays.

> LAst year several of us were at a MoET conference on IT and
>education which new ways of teaching IT. One good question would be what
>progress
>has been made in the last year to do this?

I plan to try to steer a focused debate with not too many issues at a time,
and to stick to the core issues. Pls. throw it in when it comes to the matter.

Cheerio,
Stefan

>Cheers, Vern
>
> > > This has nothing to
> > >do the Government and everything to do with how academics drive the agenda
> > >for change themselves. And not just academics per se, but the activits
> in our
> > >community (some of whom are on this list) who are prapared to put
> themselves
> > >into the fight.
> > >
> > >The second point we have discussed before, the need for dependable OS
> software
> > >that people can use without fear.
> >
> > I run yesterday a quick test of the new OpenOffice 1.0.2 and on a first
> > glance it looks like the issues which made it unusable for me the last time
> > seem to have gone with this release :)
>
>I have had problems with 1.0.1 as well and I'll download the new one. Thanks.
>Not that many of you will be interested, but Open office is now available for
>for the Macintosh Unix layer running Darwin or X11. It is scheduled to be
>available
>for the Mac GUI perhaps by the end of the year.
>
> > > Then the distribution will be no problem
> > >since the local CD burning business community would be happy to flog
> OSS for
> > >a dollar or so and everyone would be happy.
> >
> > I hope so.
> > More details about that later.
>
>;-)
>
>--
>
>Vern Weitzel (Mr.), Webmanager
><weitzel@undp.org.vn> or <webmanager@undp.org.vn>
>United Nations Development Programme
>address: 25-29 Phan Boi Chau; Ha Noi, Viet Nam
>postal address:
>UNDP Viet Nam One UN Plaza New York, NY 10017 USA
>UNDP Viet Nam Palais des Nations 1211 Geneva Switzerland
>UNDP Viet Nam GPO Box 618 Bangkok, 10501 Thailand
>tel: +84-4 942-1495 (ext 135) fax: +84-4 942-2267
>http://www.undp.org.vn and http://www.un.org.vn
>home address: Apartment 504-505, Block A4 Giang Vo
>[opposite UN Int. School] tel: +84-4 846-1751
>-------------------------------------------------
> UNDP is the UN's global development network
>
>
>
>
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