Re: [PubSoft] Re: [rms@gnu.org: Nonprofits and free software]

Hello Bob,

I hope we don't annoy other listeners too much, but I enjoy our
conversation and find it interesting. I copy again your whole post in the
end for the oss@isoc-vn.org list.

Now to your remarks:
I don't think, that you can compare Vietnam so easily with Malaysia or
other countries, e.g. in South America, where MS succeeded up to a point to
extoll real fees from businesses.

First, those countries are more Dollar-rich, so the relative cost of MS SW
is not that exuberant expensive like in Vietnam. You can't rob somebody of
a Dollar if he has none in his pocket. And while Vietnamese will hopefully
get a bit more "rich" over the next years, so will MS probably raise their
prices.

Consider also, that with trade liberalization etc., it becomes more and
more difficult for sellers to charge different prices in different markets.

Second, the timing is different. OpenOffice is becoming e.g. now a much
more viable alternative to MS Office than it was a short time ago. If MS
would seriously start to get pushy - and the government would really
enforce something, except a few show cases, then people would surely switch
to OpenOffice en masse. That could not happen some time ago, when there was
not a really viable alternative.

Thirdly, the product is different. There are reasonable (i.e. Spanish and
Portuguese) versions of Windows and MS Office available for South America.
There is nothing for Vietnamese. MS would have to decide whether the
comparable small and very Dollar-purchasing-weak Vietnamese market would
justify their development cost, especially also considering, that
Vietnamese is not that easy like a European language. They tried it some
years ago with a Vietnamese version of Windows AFAIR, but failed that
miserably, that they obviously gave it up again. On the other side,
Vietnamese companies translated OpenOffice already.

Therefore I have my severe doubts, - as long as we keep alternatives ready
- whether MS can seriously make any gain in the broad market here (except
some foreign companies and Government offices).

Now to some other points:
>You point out that you cannot depend on youngsters thinking clearly
>about their future.

No. What I meant was, that people think in a way what you might call very
"careless". Do you seriously think, that any police could stop you
whistling whatever you like, even if the composer would ask for royalty
fees? It is just out of the question. Ridiculous. That MS would seriously
ask somebody in Vietnam to spend a fortune just to be allowed to use some
SW is similarly ridiculous.

>As you say, the potential young programmer in Vietnam may not care to learn,

Hey, wait, you mix two issues. They can learn a lot by studying GNU/Linux,
while at the same time using MS Windows. People here are very pragmatic.

Cheers,
Stefan

At 12:24 24.01.2003 +0000, Robert J. Chassell wrote:
-------------------------
> I am talking about the "freedom to copy, use and re-distribute every SW".
> Tell a youngster, that he should fight for the freedom to whistle
> whatever
> melody he likes, because the author of this melody might sue him in five
> years time. He will just laugh at you....
>
>The problem is that has happened. In the US a decade ago some
>students studied Unix source code under a non-disclosure license from
>AT&T. After they graduated, they found that some potential employers
>feared to hire them, because they, the employers, might get sued for
>their employees plagerism by AT&T.
>
>You point out that you cannot depend on youngsters thinking clearly
>about their future; that is the job of their parents, teachers,
>university administrators, and others in the society whose duty is to
>act on behalf of the young people.
>
>As you say, the potential young programmer in Vietnam may not care to
>learn, and may not care to become dependent on a lawbreaking US
>corporation; but his or her elders should care.
>
> I think the latest estimations are at about 97% unlicensed SW.
>
>Yes, and if Vietnam becomes a `successful country' -- one that
>outsiders think may well grow economically -- then you can expect the
>US trade representative to begin to press the local government to
>arrange that more and more money be paid to a lawbreaking US
>corporation, and to others outside the country. This has happened in
>Malaysia. But it will not happen if everyone expects Vietnam to
>continue as a failure.
>
> ... MS Office with its inappropriate price is really out of the
> question here. Now, once users are used to an alternative to the MS
> stuff, and Free OS's (GNU/Linux and the like) get more mature on
> the desktop, then it could well happen, ....
>
>Yes, that is the goal. But unless people learn that free software is
>possible, and a very good way to structure your society and
>businesses, they will not make the transition.
>
> The end user does not need that.
> (And on a side note: I prefer to have a program that works, even if I
> cannot study it, than one which I can study, but don't get it to work.
> And
> as the time of this writing, this is unfortunately still often the case
> when it comes to Windows vs. GNU/Linux).
>
>To me your remark is strange, since the people I know often complain
>about their software. At my ISP, the support person even goes so far
>as to suggest that people reboot their machines. Who has ever heard
>of a non-experimental machine requiring a reboot?
>
>What is your experience with the Debian stable distribution?
>
>
> >backward neo-colonial dependents
>
> Well, I am dependent on air. Where is the problem?
>
>It depends whether anyone controls the air and if so who. On earth,
>only stranglers control your air, and only for a short time. In a
>space station, the people who run it control the air.
>
>Years ago, the French government decided that people were dependent on
>not-being eaten by sharks, so they put a prison on an island, called
>`Devil's Island'. If a prisoner tried to swim away, he would find he
>was dependent on freedom from sharks.
>
>
> Dependency becomes a problem, if the supply can run short, or be made
> short.
> See what I wrote above. How can MS create a short supply of their SW here
> in Vietnam?
>
>It can replicate the technique it has followed in countries that are
>seen as becoming successful, such as Malaysia and Brazil: persuade
>the US government to push the local government to permit legal suits
>against large and obvious users of non-legally copied software.
>
>The marketing aim is to provide inexpensive software (via non-legal
>copying) to people to get them started with it. Then, over a decade
>or so, to realize profits from those who can pay. Obviously, like any
>monopoly, the price paid will be set to be low enough so that not
>everyone shifts to an alternative, but high enough to transfer wealth
>from those who pay to those who receive.
>
> Historically, the "developed" nations got usually rich (amongst
> others) by
> exploiting the now developing countries. Maybe this is one of the very
> few
> instances, where it is the other way round: People in Vietnam benefit (I
> don't say "get rich"!) from MS spending a bit of money on their
> programmers, without giving directly something in return. Do you see a
> problem with that? (or are you only a bit jealous <g>?)
>
>The marketing people I know look on the process as one of providing a
>`lost leader', a money losing item that leads people to get used to
>the product.
>
>If Microsoft were trying to exploit Vietnam, a marketing person would
>expect it to provide inexpensive copies of its software, get people
>accustomed to its user interface and data formats, and then, if the
>market comes to look promising (a big question in Vietnam), raise the
>price to some users -- those who can pay -- while continuing to
>provide inexpensive copies to students and others.
>
>Based on your description, you are set up for exploitation.
>
>--
> Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises
> http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8
> http://www.teak.cc bob@gnu.org
>_______________________________________________
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